A shame the city folk can't get out of there on time without a car! The last bus that'll get you to SF or Richmond leaves at 9:30. I guess they could ride a bike to the San Anselmo Inn?

This would be a wonderful project in Novato. Please reconsider location if Fairfax will not welcome you with open arms.

This would also be a wonderful project in San Rafael, where there are freeways and parking and infrastructure to support travelers from all over the Bay Area to come and hear Big Name Bands. Fairfax has only two- two lane roads in and out.

@octavius, I agree. Maybe building this venue would be a good reason to petition and successfully get the 23 Bus to run later. It's over a one hour walk or about a $35 cab fair from Fairfax to San Rafael transit center, unfortunately, and no one can really make that walk during the several months of the cold, rainy, seasons even with waterproof shoes!

A fabulous project for Fairfax!!!

on the surface, it seems like a good proposal, but realistically it would result in a traffic nightmare where there is already too much traffic and a shortage of parking.

Novato has freeway access, space to build and folks that would enjoy a music venue that brought night life and people to our town. Please consider moving north!

A great idea but too big for a small town like Fairfax. If it were a club for 200 people perhaps, but for 500 its just too much to sacrifice daily quality of life. I wish I could support it but not at its current scale.

To the Leshes - Please resubmit the application! Plenty of Fairfaxians are wholeheartedly in support of this project - yes, traffic and parking issues should be examined, but overall, there is terrific community support for this!!!

Tina - make no mistake that most Fairfaxians favor Terrapin Crossroads. But let's suppose the Lesh's redirect it to San Anslemo or Novato (they're not, but let's suppose). There'd be opposition form locals in both towns for any number of reasons. This project has have "Fairfax" written all over it. But it's completely impossible to make everyone happy. I hope that the Lesh's don't deem that a Terrapin Crossroads requirement.

Don't do it Phil and Jill. Its way too big and your totally tearing the community apart over this for profit music hall that non of us locals can afford anyway. Think about all the section 8 elderly and handicap people living right next to the spot. Go to novato or to san rafael. Some place that is next to a freeway, not the back of a two lane valley. Do the right thing. Stop the the tearing down of beautiful Fairfax and let it bloom once agian. Do the right thign!

To the Leshes- Do you want to spend the next five years battling to get planning approval. It took Trader Joes eight years in downtown Berkeley. And that project had lots of on site parking for sober people. There will be endless appeals and lawsuits. In the end, if you compromise, you might get something built, but the karma will never be right.

Wow - 574 votes. That's a lot of people with an opinion.

The majority of the votes are in favor of the project. Again, I wish we had a venue like this in Novato. It would be amazing.

Kelly, Anyone could vote any number of times in the "poll". Yes it was unscientific, a travesty of a mockery of a sham of a mockery of a travesty of two mockeries of a sham to quote W Allen

I suspect those going as far to post signs against Terrapin Crossroads are also voting multiple times. Once again these few objectors are hijacking a discussion to benefit the community for their own interests.

Looking back, it will one day be clear to all that Terrapin Crossroads is/was the best opportunity we have to preserve the unique character of Fairfax. Imagine the alternative for that commercial location...another retail business with hundreds of customers visiting and parking each day? I'd rather have a positive music-loving crowd show up 1-2 days per week with the other 5-6 days left open for Fairfax kids and local nonprofits (and less traffic)...how could it get better than that?! Phil and Jill, please trust in the review and discussion process and come back to the town with your proposal...we will all be glad you did in the end!

I think it is selfish & thoughtless wanting to create such a HUGE rock venue in this small town of 7500 people right next to a senior citizens' home, subjecting 70 old folks to the invasion of a 1000 concert goers EVERY single weekend of the year!! Has Phil even thought once about the implications for these old folks? Having throngs of people leave after midnight, some of them under the influence, by itself will create an incredible disturbance. I feel sorry for anyone living close to the proposed concert venue! I would guess Phil won't have to spend his old age at Bennett House!

The project sounds great and is easy to support if you don't live close by and have to deal with all the noise, parking & traffic every single weekend…. Plus people camping in their RVs etc... Surely there will be enough folks finding a way to avoid expensive valet parking!!

I thought what makes Fairfax great was the fact that people CARED for each other [including ex Fairfax resident Phil Lesh] - but apparently this has fallen by the wayside in order to make a handsome profit at $150 x 1000 tickets per weekend.

Phil, please show some compassion and don't destroy this small town with this WAY TO BIG concert business! Please find a more suitable location with ample parking, and at respectable distance from a residential neighborhood. Thank you!

I'm troubled by the poll numbers- only 4% of respondents are still keeping an open mind. We need to be patient enough to suspend our judgments until we have the needed information, the pending reports and analyses. This project is such a rare opportunity, and the issues raised are critical for all of us. Breathe deep Fairfax!

thin52,000 concert goes per year at a ticket price of $150 a pop x 1000 per weekend x52 weeks = $7,800,000.00 gross per year - sounds like BIG business, way too BIG for this small town!

sorry about my typos above: "think about 52,000 concert goers..."

KEO: The financial benefits for the town and merchants appear tempting, I agree - even though the greatest financial gain will go to Phil's LLC by far! Fair enough - but at what terrible costs to nearby residents and seniors? Can't you see that the project's size is way out of proportions for our small town. And we can't and don't want to replace Sir Francis Drake with a freeway! Should we, if this guarantees even more revenue for merchants and town?? Pimp out the remaining little peace and quiet we still have in this over amped world. If it was a club for a 100-200 patrons I'd support it! 500 each weekend night would be a true nightmare to deal with.

As to your speculations and accusations regarding poll manipulations, in case you don't realize this, may I remind you that anyone, who has the time on his/her hands can be doing this - pro or con! It might be difficult for you to accept that some people actually do have different opinions than you do! Sorry we can't all agree with you.

sam- I am sure there was poll manipulations going on on both sides, but if you followed any of the other polls (the ones where you couldn't vote twice) the divide was usually 25% against 75% in favor....this poll was trending towards the same numbers in the first few days of the poll and then ALL OF A SUDDEN the opposition was equal....now you don't have to be a genius to do a little deductive reasoning to figure out what happened. So when you say sorry "we" can't all agree with "you" I would turn that around and say Sorry "we" (75% of pop) can't all agree with "you"(25%) of the population. It seems as if it is REALLY hard for YOU to accept that people actually do have different opinions than you do ! And your right, I do not agree that it is too big , do you go see music, have you been to a venue that held 500 people ? I am actually really asking that question....it isn't rhetorical. I don't see music, culture and art as "pimping" out the remaining peace and quiet in an amped up world, I see it as a tonic that helps make the world a little bit more real and peaceful. Music and culture get people out of their homes , out from in front of the TV to go out in the world, into our community and connect with eachother....this creates a more peaceful world. Sitting inside, sipping wine, watching the tube does not do this !

Did you guys even read this in the FAQ? I guess you'd rather have a New York Bank there than Terrapin Crossroads? Thats ridiculous. Phil and the Grateful Dead are part of this community and have been for decades...

Are there alternative proposals for the site?

The property is owned by the owners of Good Earth and is used, currently, for overflow parking for them. They have said a New York-based bank is interested in buying the property and coming into town, but that the Phil Lesh proposal was a better fit for Fairfax. There are no other applications filed with the town.

KEO: Please be more careful with your negative assumptions & stereotypes about people!

The poll results seem well balanced, considering the many downsides to this project. A 27/75 ratio would look fishy on such a controversial proposal! At the Pavilion people seemed evenly divided too. No manipulations either!

How dare you to judge others you don't even know… "…sitting inside, watching TV, and sipping wine", or the previous condescending statement: "If you read the news… etc" - you think you're the only one who does? This venue needs a location with infrastructure for parking & proper traffic access! Not in a narrow valley with SFD already beyond capacity.

Any concerns regarding the 70 seniors at Bennett house behind the planned concert hall!! Any compassion? I mentioned this point to someone and he replied: "These folks won't be able to hear anything, they all lost their hearing a long time ago." Are you in agreement with that statement? Maybe Phil did not realize that there is so many old people living right next door. He seems like a reasonable man.

No, I don't live next to the venue - or at Bennett house, and hardly ever watch TV! There is a sizable amount of people who think this is WAY TOO BIG, DISRUPTIVE & at the WRONG location. We already have PLENTY of great music at several venues, which we enjoy! That's pretty much all there's to say at this point. Let's give it a rest for now…… and hope a new location can be found without a big fight.

sam- No I am not in agreement with the person who made the statement about the seniors losing their hearing , BUT I do believe that the building will be designed and situated in a way to where the folks that live at Bennett House and in Fairfax proper will not be able to hear the music from the venue. There is a sizable amount of people who DON"T think it is too big or disruptive and many actually think it is the perfect location. You didn't answer my question. Have you ever been to a venue that held 500 people ? If so, which one. Thanks,Keo

Was that 150 Fairbucks or Philbucks?

Sam- I come across as angry b/c I am. I am angry a small % of people who live in this town took up a cause and tried to create fear in our community over something that could be so wonderful. I talk to people daily, who are so excited about this proposal and honestly cannot believe that some are in such an uproar about this BEFORE we have even had the chance to really see what it entails. It's a new generation of entitled NIMBY complainers (No Baseball at Alberts Field (a baseball field) NO School at Deer Park School (even though it was always a school) NO Grocery Store at the Old Albertson ) It is one thing after another and it is frustrating and I am not the only one who sees it this way.....so sure, I'll take the roll of the unpleasant one that actually expresses what many are feeling. I swear only in the NEW Marin would people complain about a baseball team coming to town and only In the NEW Fairfax would people complain about PHIL LESH opening up a music venue in our town.

How to eliminate gridlock traffic on Sir Francis Drake and parking congestion on Fairfax residential streets during concerts every weekend?  Helicopter shuttles from Larkspur Landing or Borders empty lot in SR to Rudi Contratti field! Just add an extra $100 to the $150 ticket price. $150 for Phil,  $75 per person for the ride, $25 for FXDP -- better than only $5 per ticket. People who can afford the $150 ticket price won't mind paying a little extra to avoid the horrendous commute and parking chaos -- and can travel in style! As to the expected hordes of vendors & campers tagging along: Rent the vacant GE building next door to them. What to do about the beat up RVs and campers? Well, they could setup camp at the Town & Country Club which has plenty of grassy space! This creates more revenue for the owners, and the town of Fairfax. But what about folks with tents -- well, there is Peri Park, a great place to setup camp, get stoned under the redwoods and and skinny dip in the creek. If we can't agree on the solutions above let's think about Ross as an alternative location. The town really could use a little more color and life and doesn't have any music venue yet! I'm sure there would be lots of enthusiastic support. Sir Francis Drake has 4 lanes all the way to Kentfield and there's plenty of weekend parking at COM. Maybe Phil's backyard is large enough to build the barn. If anyone has even better ideas, let's hear them ;)

I'm behind KEO and all the other pro-Terrapin-in-Fairfax folks. Sam is inflating numbers and off the charts with his perceived "destruction" to this town. Fairfax is and has been a music town. Terrapin is not ONLY about music (and a 500-capacity, not 1,000, Sam), it's about youth, education and opportunity. I'd rather have that than another America-destroying bank there! Phil and Jill, we appreciate your respect for the community and your cautious approach, but we, the majority of Fairfax, WANT THIS.

Over 40 Arrests At Furthur Festival
http://www.mymotherlode.com/news/local/1038910/Over-40-Arrests-At-Furthur-Festival.html

At Furthur Concert, Police Arrest Far More Than Usual
http://cornellsun.com/node/40812

Drug arrests made before Furthur show
http://www.mpnnow.com/canandaigua/x2014917497/Drug-arrests-made-before-Furthur-show

Fairfax, VA police bust 30 alleged drug dealers at GMU Dead show
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-state-of-nova/post/fairfax-police-bust-30-drug-dealers-at-gmu-dead-show/2011/04/27/AFWb2V2E_blog.html

City cracks down on vendors
http://www.registerguard.com/web/newslocalnews/26925418-41/police-eugene-park-furthur-alton.html.csp

Wow- yeah, thanks Catman for continuing the hysteria. U have to put these articles into context. "Over 40 arrests at Furthur Festival"...out of 10,000 concert goers, is what they don't say. "Drug Arrests made before Furthur show" - two people were arrested. The other stories about cities arresting several handfuls of people for attempting to sell/use drugs are ALL cities that have welcomed the Dead and off shoots for years, they welcome them as a boost to local economy and they now know that if they go out in force they can make some $ off writing tickets,hence the #s. They arrested people for drugs NOT murder or assault or harassment...that would be "scary stuff". It is not a fair to compare these larger Furthur Festival shows to what Phil is proposing in Fairfax, for so many reasons that I have beaten to death, that I will refrain from repeating, as they obviously fall on deaf ears. If these people that scare u did in fact show up they would soon find out that 1)Fairfax finest and venue staff would make sure that no loitering was aloud.(In one of the articles they mentioned that the problem was the security staff not following the guidelines that had been laid out btwn officials and promoter)2) They Couldn't make any $ here as no one would be buying their drugs/burritos/pipes.3)No tix sales at venue....and they wouldn't continue to return. The people who will go to this venue will be locals and music fans with $ to buy a ticket.

Thank you for the links Catman! This puts an added thumbs down perspective on the planned project! Dangerous psychoactive drugs can twist people's mind in a truly bad way and lead to violence and psychotic behavior as quoted in the linked article[s]. Truly SCARY!!

http://www.mymotherlode.com/news/local/1038910/Over-40-Arrests-At-Furthur-Festival.html

Unfortunately Jerry Garcia was not a shining role model in this area, and it appears many Dead Heads still worship lots of illegal drug use. Not just weed, but hard stuff! Do we want this scene in our town?? Dealer selling their wares to our teens? This seems to be part of the Dead Head 'culture'!  PLEASE - not here in Fairfax!

Firstly, I'd like to say that this is the first time I've ever posted on a public discussion on the 'net, even though I frequently read them. The reason I'm driven to the comment box in this particular instatnce is not to give my opinion (I will later) but to express my hope that Fairfax can live up to the ideals of democracy throughout this comment box and all other deliberations concerning the Terrapin proposal. Firslty, I would hope that all claimsmakers (groups and indivuduals alike) keep truth-seeking as the primary goal of arguemention. Heated discussions where each side is only seeking to score points tend to be rife with exhadduration, fallacy, undue certiantly in questionable futures, and specious arguements of all kinds. I hope we all can remain concious of the effects of confirmation bias on our reasoning. Arguement should serve to cut away factual disagreements, and lay bare the foundations of our beliefs so that others may understand them. Where we find irriducible differences, lets agknowledge them, and respect them. This is a plea to Fairfax to live up to its reputation as an exceptional place- a place where people treat one another well, and where democracy really works.

Now I'd like to make a few points:
Catman, Bradclark, and Sam are concerned that Terrapin would bring in crowds of Deadheads and other hardcore music-followers who tend to cause problems, from public urination to (occasionally) drug-induced psychotic violence. They cite examples. Keo has rightly pointed out that all the examples cited were larger venues, even festivals. In my experiance at The Great American, Slim's, and the Mystic, people do not use drugs other than weed and alcohol. So it seems that the question becomes this: if a band like the Further came to Fairfax, would we be deluged with Deadheads? It seems like this question could be answered with a little research- i.e. surveying analogous venues that HAVE hosted Further to find out what the typical experience is. And if the answer is "yes, there's always a deluge of disruptive public-urinating partiers", then the question should become: "would there be a way to mitigate this?" I'm thinking in particular of limiting the number of shows per year that bring in the bands (like Further) that bring in disruptive followers. And if it turns out that the debacles described in the news articles are exceptional, then we should expect a Terrapin scene a lot like that of the Mystic: subdued, nothing to be "SCARED" about.

Lets not villify Deadheads. If they're like other neo-hippies, they're kind folks and free thinkers, if not a little out of touch with the mainstream society. Sure there's bound to be a few bad apples out there, and a few permafried ones too, and of course, like many young people, neo-hippies can be inconsiderate when drunk and in a festival-herd mentality, but on the whole, they're a kind bunch. Music-centered bohemianism is part of what a lot of people, myself included, love most about Fairfax.
What does everyone else think?

Thank you Jupes for your thoughts! The main concerns still remain the size of the venue, the location - too close to residential areas, and additional traffic on our already overcrowded access roads [SFD and Center] - plus parking congestion in adjacent neighborhoods. And all this multiple times every week!

I don't live in the Claus Dr. neighborhood, but I think residents concerns should not be dismissed! Anyone living close to the planned venue, including the seniors at Bennett house have very valid objections [and rights]. I really don't buy the assurances given by some, that the noise won't be audible outside the building. Concrete walls sound good, but what about the many glass windows? What about hordes of people leaving after midnight several times a week? Our police dept. is understaffed as is, how are they expected to handle the additional workload, DUI's etc…?

It seems there is a lot of whitewashing going on by the reps for the project to pacify opponents. And lets not forget this is an over sized for profit rock venue which few locals could afford at the $150 per person ticket price. It seems the town is more or less evenly divided on this with only a few speaking out on the forum.

If Phil wants to go ahead on this despite sizable opposition, let see the results of an EIR and the outcome of future civil litigation.

How about a Credit Union for the location, so we can take our funds from greedy banksters? No noise/congestion! $$$ for Fairfax!!!

Jason: don't tell me "to go away" just b/c I don't agree with you! I am entitled to my opinion! Who are they? A corporate rock LLC looking for an annual 8mil + gross in Phil bucks. Don't be fooled - who is going to benefit the most? We are the people, and I'm not the only one. This MEGA nightclub does not fit into town, and we will fight it!

Ellen...I mean sam - Now I can definitely tell you have NEVER been to a nightclub, cause if you had you would know that 500 doesn't even come close to being MEGA.....it's plain ridiculous, and that's not opinion that is fact. You may be the people , but you are in the minority and that is very clear if you were at the meeting or if you start to talk to people around town (outside of your closed anti- Terrapin circuit). There is not sizable opposition, you're just the loudest and I hope that Phil and Jill realize that !

Here we go again: more blind assumptions by Mr. Keo 'know it all'!

You talked to your friends the pro folks, and I hear a lot of con folks, or 'on the fence' folks, who haven't thought through the logistics and negative implication for this town and surrounding neighborhoods. I was at the Pavilion meeting, and it was evenly divided - more or less! The poll so far is 41% pro and 53% con, unscientific as it may be - with both sides effected by this. Don't belittle people that won't agree with you! We have our valid reasons.

500 concert goers per night won't be MEGA in San Francisco, or maybe not somewhere by the freeway, away from residential neighborhoods - but in a small town of only 7500 citizens 2x or 3x EVERY week of the year will certainly create a HUGE impact in traffic, parking, noise and other already mentioned environmental impacts. Look at things in perspective, and keep in mind that people will drive to get here, park in our streets - and the list goes on….

People have a right to be concerned about their quality of life being ruined by a proposed over sized night club in our small town. We don not all have to agree with you!

Wow - what an arrogant, ignorant, and self-righteous statement!! I find it hard to believe you grew up here, since you seem to be completely unable to accept that not everyone has to agree with you. I've lived in Fairfax for over 30 years, raised 2 children, and danced at the original Sleeping Lady. Fairfax has always tolerated different opinions, and welcomed people from all corners of the world. Maybe you don't belong here and should seriously consider moving somewhere else...? I hate to disappoint you, but I'm not from the East Coast at all, but you should be ashamed for you blatant prejudice and intolerance towards others!

I did not write that comment above, either there is another keo or someone is writing in my name. I would never write something like that, that would give you that much ammunition against my statements.

An other angry Keo? Oh no! Links to the same Keo, if you click the link.... better reign in that evil twin.... b/c he is out of control ;)

Must have been one of my roommates ?? But by the way have you checked your tone lately. You seem pretty angry to me.....