Poll: Phil Lesh's Terrapin Crossroads

As the time nears that the Leshes said they would make a decision on going ahead with the music project, what do you think of the proposal?

, at the empty gas station next to , is currently on hold.

were posted around their neighborhood in Ross. But, they have said they would reconsider moving forward with the submitted project at the end of September/October - once more outreach was done with the community.

That time is nearing, so what do you think: should the Leshes move forward with the proposed project to the town and begin the formal review and analysis process?

Read . Read and .

We know lots of debate has been raging and nearly everything that could be said has been said, but the time for debate may be coming to an end if the Leshes decide not to continue with the project. So, take one last look and take our poll.

sam September 27, 2011 at 08:13 PM
KEO: Please be more careful with your negative assumptions & stereotypes about people! The poll results seem well balanced, considering the many downsides to this project. A 27/75 ratio would look fishy on such a controversial proposal! At the Pavilion people seemed evenly divided too. No manipulations either! How dare you to judge others you don't even know… "…sitting inside, watching TV, and sipping wine", or the previous condescending statement: "If you read the news… etc" - you think you're the only one who does? This venue needs a location with infrastructure for parking & proper traffic access! Not in a narrow valley with SFD already beyond capacity. Any concerns regarding the 70 seniors at Bennett house behind the planned concert hall!! Any compassion? I mentioned this point to someone and he replied: "These folks won't be able to hear anything, they all lost their hearing a long time ago." Are you in agreement with that statement? Maybe Phil did not realize that there is so many old people living right next door. He seems like a reasonable man. No, I don't live next to the venue - or at Bennett house, and hardly ever watch TV! There is a sizable amount of people who think this is WAY TOO BIG, DISRUPTIVE & at the WRONG location. We already have PLENTY of great music at several venues, which we enjoy! That's pretty much all there's to say at this point. Let's give it a rest for now…… and hope a new location can be found without a big fight.
sam September 28, 2011 at 12:04 AM
My apologies for using the confusing word 'pimped out' and being unclear here - I wasn't using it to condemn music, culture and art - which I appreciate very much! That's not the issue here. It was used to express my regret to sell out our remaining peace and sanity in the name of more revenue, and by doing so allowing large amounts of extra traffic, noise and congestion jam up SFD and our neighborhoods.
keo September 29, 2011 at 12:14 PM
sam- No I am not in agreement with the person who made the statement about the seniors losing their hearing , BUT I do believe that the building will be designed and situated in a way to where the folks that live at Bennett House and in Fairfax proper will not be able to hear the music from the venue. There is a sizable amount of people who DON"T think it is too big or disruptive and many actually think it is the perfect location. You didn't answer my question. Have you ever been to a venue that held 500 people ? If so, which one. Thanks,Keo
sam September 29, 2011 at 09:53 PM
Quote from patch.com: Mary Ann Maggiore [former Fairfax Major & Council member] 9:36am on Wednesday, September 28, 2011: "The $150 ticket price was discussed at the C of C sponsored at the Pavilion and Bruce Berman, the developer, did not disavow it."
keo September 30, 2011 at 01:06 AM
Bruce Berman is the developer he does not know anything about the running of the night club. I do not remember hearing anything about a $150 ticket price and I am pretty sure it would have pricked my ears up b/c I'd have a problem if they charged that much. If they charged that much for certain charity events that could be where that figure came in. Mary Ann - Can you please clarify at which point it was discussed as I don't remember this and I was there pretty much the whole time ?
george bennett September 30, 2011 at 01:26 AM
Was that 150 Fairbucks or Philbucks?
sam September 30, 2011 at 03:35 AM
Look Keo, as mentioned in my previous posts, at this point I said what I have to say - this is not about you and I, so let's not bore everyone and dominate this discussion, give others a chance to participate! BTW, here is an interesting article, illustrating problems that Fairfax might have to face in addition to concert related traffic, parking & noise issues: http://www.registerguard.com/web/newslocalnews/26925418-41/police-eugene-park-furthur-alton.html.csp
keo September 30, 2011 at 12:35 PM
Sam- So I am going to assume you have not been to a 500 person venue, since you haven't answered the question. My point in asking that was to see if you had actually been in a venue that holds a capacity of 500, to illustrate your fear about this number 500 is unfounded, you obviously don't have a perspective or gauge on how big 500 is. I don't see how you and me having this conversation is stopping anyone else from commenting, but I do see how you are using that as an excuse to avoid answering my question.
sam September 30, 2011 at 04:33 PM
Keo, - watch your tone - again, you make lot of blind assumptions and often come accross as angry, arrogant and unpleasant. keo says: "Have you ever been to a venue that held 500 people? If so, which one." [You forgot to ask for the exact time and with whom at what exact location.... GPS coordinants...?] "So I am going to assume you have not been to a 500 person venue, since you haven't answered the question." "....you obviously don't have a perspective or gauge on how big 500 is." ".....you are using that as an excuse to avoid answering my question." I've been to many concerts, large and small but don't owe you any further explanations! This is not an interrogation. I have better things to do with my time than arguing with you. I said what I have to say at this moment. And if i have something more to say I will do so! This not a battle between 2 people. Let's not clog up this forum with our boring repetitions! So just sit back and take a deep breath!
keo September 30, 2011 at 06:24 PM
Sam- I come across as angry b/c I am. I am angry a small % of people who live in this town took up a cause and tried to create fear in our community over something that could be so wonderful. I talk to people daily, who are so excited about this proposal and honestly cannot believe that some are in such an uproar about this BEFORE we have even had the chance to really see what it entails. It's a new generation of entitled NIMBY complainers (No Baseball at Alberts Field (a baseball field) NO School at Deer Park School (even though it was always a school) NO Grocery Store at the Old Albertson ) It is one thing after another and it is frustrating and I am not the only one who sees it this way.....so sure, I'll take the roll of the unpleasant one that actually expresses what many are feeling. I swear only in the NEW Marin would people complain about a baseball team coming to town and only In the NEW Fairfax would people complain about PHIL LESH opening up a music venue in our town.
Catman September 30, 2011 at 11:01 PM
How to eliminate gridlock traffic on Sir Francis Drake and parking congestion on Fairfax residential streets during concerts every weekend?  Helicopter shuttles from Larkspur Landing or Borders empty lot in SR to Rudi Contratti field! Just add an extra $100 to the $150 ticket price. $150 for Phil,  $75 per person for the ride, $25 for FXDP -- better than only $5 per ticket. People who can afford the $150 ticket price won't mind paying a little extra to avoid the horrendous commute and parking chaos -- and can travel in style! As to the expected hordes of vendors & campers tagging along: Rent the vacant GE building next door to them. What to do about the beat up RVs and campers? Well, they could setup camp at the Town & Country Club which has plenty of grassy space! This creates more revenue for the owners, and the town of Fairfax. But what about folks with tents -- well, there is Peri Park, a great place to setup camp, get stoned under the redwoods and and skinny dip in the creek. If we can't agree on the solutions above let's think about Ross as an alternative location. The town really could use a little more color and life and doesn't have any music venue yet! I'm sure there would be lots of enthusiastic support. Sir Francis Drake has 4 lanes all the way to Kentfield and there's plenty of weekend parking at COM. Maybe Phil's backyard is large enough to build the barn. If anyone has even better ideas, let's hear them ;)
gary October 01, 2011 at 02:16 AM
I'm behind KEO and all the other pro-Terrapin-in-Fairfax folks. Sam is inflating numbers and off the charts with his perceived "destruction" to this town. Fairfax is and has been a music town. Terrapin is not ONLY about music (and a 500-capacity, not 1,000, Sam), it's about youth, education and opportunity. I'd rather have that than another America-destroying bank there! Phil and Jill, we appreciate your respect for the community and your cautious approach, but we, the majority of Fairfax, WANT THIS.
Catman October 07, 2011 at 05:29 PM
Over 40 Arrests At Furthur Festival http://www.mymotherlode.com/news/local/1038910/Over-40-Arrests-At-Furthur-Festival.html At Furthur Concert, Police Arrest Far More Than Usual http://cornellsun.com/node/40812 Drug arrests made before Furthur show http://www.mpnnow.com/canandaigua/x2014917497/Drug-arrests-made-before-Furthur-show Fairfax, VA police bust 30 alleged drug dealers at GMU Dead show http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-state-of-nova/post/fairfax-police-bust-30-drug-dealers-at-gmu-dead-show/2011/04/27/AFWb2V2E_blog.html City cracks down on vendors http://www.registerguard.com/web/newslocalnews/26925418-41/police-eugene-park-furthur-alton.html.csp
Brad Clark October 07, 2011 at 09:16 PM
Wow. Thanks for sharing Catman. Scary stuff. Over 40 Arrests At Furthur Festival http://www.mymotherlode.com/news/local/1038910/Over-40-Arrests-At-Furthur-Festival.html At Furthur Concert, Police Arrest Far More Than Usual http://cornellsun.com/node/40812 Drug arrests made before Furthur show http://www.mpnnow.com/canandaigua/x2014917497/Drug-arrests-made-before-Furthur-show Fairfax, VA police bust 30 alleged drug dealers at GMU Dead show http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-state-of-nova/post/fairfax-police-bust-30-drug-dealers-at-gmu-dead-show/2011/04/27/AFWb2V2E_blog.html City cracks down on vendors http://www.registerguard.com/web/newslocalnews/26925418-41/police-eugene-park-furthur-alton.html.csp
keo October 08, 2011 at 12:35 AM
Wow- yeah, thanks Catman for continuing the hysteria. U have to put these articles into context. "Over 40 arrests at Furthur Festival"...out of 10,000 concert goers, is what they don't say. "Drug Arrests made before Furthur show" - two people were arrested. The other stories about cities arresting several handfuls of people for attempting to sell/use drugs are ALL cities that have welcomed the Dead and off shoots for years, they welcome them as a boost to local economy and they now know that if they go out in force they can make some $ off writing tickets,hence the #s. They arrested people for drugs NOT murder or assault or harassment...that would be "scary stuff". It is not a fair to compare these larger Furthur Festival shows to what Phil is proposing in Fairfax, for so many reasons that I have beaten to death, that I will refrain from repeating, as they obviously fall on deaf ears. If these people that scare u did in fact show up they would soon find out that 1)Fairfax finest and venue staff would make sure that no loitering was aloud.(In one of the articles they mentioned that the problem was the security staff not following the guidelines that had been laid out btwn officials and promoter)2) They Couldn't make any $ here as no one would be buying their drugs/burritos/pipes.3)No tix sales at venue....and they wouldn't continue to return. The people who will go to this venue will be locals and music fans with $ to buy a ticket.
sam October 08, 2011 at 03:38 AM
Thank you for the links Catman! This puts an added thumbs down perspective on the planned project! Dangerous psychoactive drugs can twist people's mind in a truly bad way and lead to violence and psychotic behavior as quoted in the linked article[s]. Truly SCARY!! http://www.mymotherlode.com/news/local/1038910/Over-40-Arrests-At-Furthur-Festival.html Unfortunately Jerry Garcia was not a shining role model in this area, and it appears many Dead Heads still worship lots of illegal drug use. Not just weed, but hard stuff! Do we want this scene in our town?? Dealer selling their wares to our teens? This seems to be part of the Dead Head 'culture'!  PLEASE - not here in Fairfax!
jason October 11, 2011 at 01:15 AM
Sam, go away. You are a downer
Jupes October 11, 2011 at 07:32 PM
Firstly, I'd like to say that this is the first time I've ever posted on a public discussion on the 'net, even though I frequently read them. The reason I'm driven to the comment box in this particular instatnce is not to give my opinion (I will later) but to express my hope that Fairfax can live up to the ideals of democracy throughout this comment box and all other deliberations concerning the Terrapin proposal. Firslty, I would hope that all claimsmakers (groups and indivuduals alike) keep truth-seeking as the primary goal of arguemention. Heated discussions where each side is only seeking to score points tend to be rife with exhadduration, fallacy, undue certiantly in questionable futures, and specious arguements of all kinds. I hope we all can remain concious of the effects of confirmation bias on our reasoning. Arguement should serve to cut away factual disagreements, and lay bare the foundations of our beliefs so that others may understand them. Where we find irriducible differences, lets agknowledge them, and respect them. This is a plea to Fairfax to live up to its reputation as an exceptional place- a place where people treat one another well, and where democracy really works.
Jupes October 11, 2011 at 08:32 PM
Now I'd like to make a few points: Catman, Bradclark, and Sam are concerned that Terrapin would bring in crowds of Deadheads and other hardcore music-followers who tend to cause problems, from public urination to (occasionally) drug-induced psychotic violence. They cite examples. Keo has rightly pointed out that all the examples cited were larger venues, even festivals. In my experiance at The Great American, Slim's, and the Mystic, people do not use drugs other than weed and alcohol. So it seems that the question becomes this: if a band like the Further came to Fairfax, would we be deluged with Deadheads? It seems like this question could be answered with a little research- i.e. surveying analogous venues that HAVE hosted Further to find out what the typical experience is. And if the answer is "yes, there's always a deluge of disruptive public-urinating partiers", then the question should become: "would there be a way to mitigate this?" I'm thinking in particular of limiting the number of shows per year that bring in the bands (like Further) that bring in disruptive followers. And if it turns out that the debacles described in the news articles are exceptional, then we should expect a Terrapin scene a lot like that of the Mystic: subdued, nothing to be "SCARED" about.
Jupes October 11, 2011 at 08:54 PM
Lets not villify Deadheads. If they're like other neo-hippies, they're kind folks and free thinkers, if not a little out of touch with the mainstream society. Sure there's bound to be a few bad apples out there, and a few permafried ones too, and of course, like many young people, neo-hippies can be inconsiderate when drunk and in a festival-herd mentality, but on the whole, they're a kind bunch. Music-centered bohemianism is part of what a lot of people, myself included, love most about Fairfax. What does everyone else think?
sam October 11, 2011 at 11:01 PM
Thank you Jupes for your thoughts! The main concerns still remain the size of the venue, the location - too close to residential areas, and additional traffic on our already overcrowded access roads [SFD and Center] - plus parking congestion in adjacent neighborhoods. And all this multiple times every week! I don't live in the Claus Dr. neighborhood, but I think residents concerns should not be dismissed! Anyone living close to the planned venue, including the seniors at Bennett house have very valid objections [and rights]. I really don't buy the assurances given by some, that the noise won't be audible outside the building. Concrete walls sound good, but what about the many glass windows? What about hordes of people leaving after midnight several times a week? Our police dept. is understaffed as is, how are they expected to handle the additional workload, DUI's etc…? It seems there is a lot of whitewashing going on by the reps for the project to pacify opponents. And lets not forget this is an over sized for profit rock venue which few locals could afford at the $150 per person ticket price. It seems the town is more or less evenly divided on this with only a few speaking out on the forum. If Phil wants to go ahead on this despite sizable opposition, let see the results of an EIR and the outcome of future civil litigation. How about a Credit Union for the location, so we can take our funds from greedy banksters? No noise/congestion! $$$ for Fairfax!!!
jason October 12, 2011 at 02:12 AM
omg Sam-you mean let the civic process get its due? that's what they are doing! ie counting parking spaces etc. let the elected officials do their job. ps. see you at terrapin :)
sam October 12, 2011 at 03:55 AM
Jason: don't tell me "to go away" just b/c I don't agree with you! I am entitled to my opinion! Who are they? A corporate rock LLC looking for an annual 8mil + gross in Phil bucks. Don't be fooled - who is going to benefit the most? We are the people, and I'm not the only one. This MEGA nightclub does not fit into town, and we will fight it!
keo October 12, 2011 at 12:35 PM
Ellen...I mean sam - Now I can definitely tell you have NEVER been to a nightclub, cause if you had you would know that 500 doesn't even come close to being MEGA.....it's plain ridiculous, and that's not opinion that is fact. You may be the people , but you are in the minority and that is very clear if you were at the meeting or if you start to talk to people around town (outside of your closed anti- Terrapin circuit). There is not sizable opposition, you're just the loudest and I hope that Phil and Jill realize that !
sam October 12, 2011 at 05:15 PM
Here we go again: more blind assumptions by Mr. Keo 'know it all'! You talked to your friends the pro folks, and I hear a lot of con folks, or 'on the fence' folks, who haven't thought through the logistics and negative implication for this town and surrounding neighborhoods. I was at the Pavilion meeting, and it was evenly divided - more or less! The poll so far is 41% pro and 53% con, unscientific as it may be - with both sides effected by this. Don't belittle people that won't agree with you! We have our valid reasons. 500 concert goers per night won't be MEGA in San Francisco, or maybe not somewhere by the freeway, away from residential neighborhoods - but in a small town of only 7500 citizens 2x or 3x EVERY week of the year will certainly create a HUGE impact in traffic, parking, noise and other already mentioned environmental impacts. Look at things in perspective, and keep in mind that people will drive to get here, park in our streets - and the list goes on…. People have a right to be concerned about their quality of life being ruined by a proposed over sized night club in our small town. We don not all have to agree with you!
keo October 13, 2011 at 01:48 AM
growing up in fairfax was a lot of fun, with all the crazy music venues and such. I don't know where you grew up, but I bet it was very different. A lot of east coasters moved here and tried to claim it. some fit in , some did not. Music is cool. The grateful dead was the coolest, a music venue by one of the dead is even cooler. sorry y'all didn't grow up round here...but if you did you'd be stoked. maybe you should go back to where you came from and leave us alone. fairfax wouldn't miss you. But maybe the conservative county/state you came from does( virginia, delaware, new york, iowa,etc). Go back home where you belong, do your civic duty there, we don't need you, they do, Bye! If you didn't grow up in fax you just don't get it senora, sorry-
sam October 13, 2011 at 03:45 AM
Wow - what an arrogant, ignorant, and self-righteous statement!! I find it hard to believe you grew up here, since you seem to be completely unable to accept that not everyone has to agree with you. I've lived in Fairfax for over 30 years, raised 2 children, and danced at the original Sleeping Lady. Fairfax has always tolerated different opinions, and welcomed people from all corners of the world. Maybe you don't belong here and should seriously consider moving somewhere else...? I hate to disappoint you, but I'm not from the East Coast at all, but you should be ashamed for you blatant prejudice and intolerance towards others!
keo October 13, 2011 at 12:49 PM
I did not write that comment above, either there is another keo or someone is writing in my name. I would never write something like that, that would give you that much ammunition against my statements.
sam October 13, 2011 at 04:32 PM
An other angry Keo? Oh no! Links to the same Keo, if you click the link.... better reign in that evil twin.... b/c he is out of control ;)
keo October 13, 2011 at 08:45 PM
Must have been one of my roommates ?? But by the way have you checked your tone lately. You seem pretty angry to me.....


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